Seeking Home Automation Advice

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ThomasB
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Seeking Home Automation Advice

#1 Post by ThomasB » 18 Mar 2022, 18:27

I'm a long time ESPEasy user. I am also an aging techie that is near retirement. Recently my wife talked me into moving to a new home (now under construction). It's in one of those USA "55 and over" lifestyle communities. So I'm rethinking my home automation requirements for the new place. I have six months to decide on what to do.

I'm currently using ESPEasy and Insteon, which are controlled by OpenHab. Very satisfied. But to reduce my wife's tech related frustration after I'm gone, I need to move many of the ESPEasy nodes over to commercial products. I'll still play with my special use ESPEasy nodes, so I'm not going away.

For the record, I really like Insteon. I started with X10 in 1978. Unreliable connectivity, but still cool. Lived with its warts until I converted to Insteon about 15 years ago; What a game changer. Looks good, works great. And I added OpenHab home automation about six years ago and like it a lot.

But I have the opportunity to abandon Insteon & OpenHab for something else that might be better. Whatever I choose it must he commercially made. And a brand/technology that is well known in the USA. Most importantly, it must NOT be tied to the cloud.

So I'm seeking opinions on a replacement home automation technology/system that does not break the bank. That is to say, any recommendations for something that would give me better value as compared to Insteon and OpenHab?

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#2 Post by iron » 18 Mar 2022, 23:19

In the last 10 years of IoT experience I have gradually migrated away from WiFi nodes.

So for me, "production" units means Zigbee / Z-Wave and wired nodes.

Zigbee mainly due to MESH protocol, very small overhead, long battery life, widely available nodes and competitive prices.

Wired nodes everywhere and anywhere there is a chance to run a wire (ESP32 with ethernet / ESPEasy)

HUBITAT provides local management and rules with a hub that does all of the above technologies and has a mobile app

This is just what works for me now.
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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#3 Post by TD-er » 19 Mar 2022, 09:22

I think that products which will support "Threads" and "Matter" are the products to go.
Those will guarantee to be supported by many brands. (including ESPEasy in 6 - 9 months as soon as the ESP32-H2 is widely available)
Matter is developed by a group of all vendors that may be related to any IoT like products, like Amazon, Google, Philips, etc., etc...

So in the end, even Philips Hue lights and Ikea TRÅDFRI will be addressable via Threads and Matter.

Threads is the link layer for IPv6 to Zwave/Zigbee (not sure which, as I always mix those up)
Matter is a protocol based on IPv6 to have an universal way to communicate with these devices.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#4 Post by ThomasB » 19 Mar 2022, 17:22

Thank you both for the advice. I appreciate it.

I like the wide support of Zigbee, but I can't find any wall switch scene controllers that thrill me. It seems that Insteon has spoiled me in that regard.

As wonderful as Insteon is, it has a proprietary protocol. And is a small company. These things worry me. So I'm motivated to use something universally supported. At the moment that means zigbee/z-wave. But there's always a "but"; I need to love it. At this point I'm not excited by what I've found.
I think that products which will support "Threads" and "Matter" are the products to go.
I agree, it sounds fantastic. But it's still a works in progress and may be awhile before we can buy these things. Here's a recent announcement:
Matter, which is intended to connect smart home devices from over a dozen brands, has been delayed until the fall of 2022. The setback comes as the Connectivity Standards Alliance, which is developing Matter, needs more time to finalize the software development kit that will allow companies to integrate with the platform, according to a release Thursday.
Long story short, there's no perfect solution for my situation. So I have to compromise. There's time for more discussion/research and feedback is appreciated.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#5 Post by TD-er » 19 Mar 2022, 23:29

One of the features of 'matter' is that it supports firmware updates.
So in the standard, there is also some minimal hardware requirements specified.
This may sound strange for a protocol standard, but it is needed to guarantee firmware upgrades.

This also means that even though the standard may not be finalized, but any final tweaks in the standard may be ironed out in a later update.
I've seen some pre-release products as I know one of the people working on the standard.
I don't think vendors will need a lot of time to have products ready when the standard is finalized.
Very likely there will be products on the shelves before.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#6 Post by ThomasB » 20 Mar 2022, 00:25

Looking at the brand names involved, I'm a bit worried that the early Matter compatible products will be priced on the high end of the market. Fingers crossed that a wide range of "affordable" stuff is offered soon.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#7 Post by TD-er » 20 Mar 2022, 09:27

One of the brands involved is Ikea.
Those are not that expensive.
In my new house, or at least in the living room and kitchen, I am now using Philips Hue.
So right now, I'm also putting my money in the same kind of bet you're in, in a few months.
I do have confidence that those will be converted into supporting "matter" by a firmware upgrade later on.
This is already quite an investment to me, so you can be sure I will try to get it to work with ESPEasy for sure.

I also have all wall sockets for light switches wired with an extra blue wire, so I can make my own ESPEasy units later to mount them to replace those switches.

I started working on ESPEasy as soon as I knew the house would be rebuilt (2017) so ESPEasy would be the best system available for automating everything in my house.
Now the house is (almost) finished, but I'm not done with ESPEasy yet ;)
I think I will be way past my retirement age when I have implemented all ideas I'm having for ESPEasy and that doesn't mean I'm a slow programmer ;)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#8 Post by ThomasB » 20 Mar 2022, 17:05

One of the brands involved is Ikea.
Those are not that expensive.
I agree, Ikea is a brand name that can promise budget friendly prices. The big unknown is if they will offer all the home automation devices I want to install. My main concern is scene switches. And I'm hoping that they expand their powered window shade offerings because I have plans to install such things.
In my new house, or at least in the living room and kitchen, I am now using Philips Hue
Due to energy related code requirements, a high percentage of the lights at my new house are flush ceiling mounted LED "can" lights. So Philips Hue retrofit isn't practical. I plan to install scene controllers in place of the wall mounted wall switches.
I also have all wall sockets for light switches wired with an extra blue wire, so I can make my own ESPEasy units later to mount them to replace those switches.
About 10 years ago the USA electrical code required neutral wires in all switch boxes on new residential construction. Specifically to support room occupancy sensors. Thank goodness this means all my light switch locations will be home automation friendly.
I started working on ESPEasy as soon as I knew the house would be rebuilt (2017) so ESPEasy would be the best system available for automating everything in my house.
Now the house is (almost) finished, but I'm not done with ESPEasy yet
Glad to hear you are close to finishing your house. Long ago you mentioned this, but the details are fuzzy to me. Please refresh my memory, was it by choice or did something happen that forced you do a major rebuild? I recall it was the latter.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#9 Post by TD-er » 20 Mar 2022, 22:16

Nope, not by choice.
Our entire street had to be rebuilt, due to damages caused by earth quakes due to gas extraction.
I do live on the largest gas field of Europe, which still holds approximately 500+ billion cubic meter of gas.
So there is a lot of debate on whether to continue to extract this gas (something to do with Ukraine, high energy prices, etc.) or leave it there because of the earth quakes.

Next week the next group of some other street will move in to the temporary houses as their houses will be demolished and rebuilt.
They also plan on adding 30 more temporary houses (in a town of ~7000 people) and in the next town of a few 1000 people they already have 60 of those temporary houses.
In total there will be roughly 10k - 20k houses that may need to be reenforced or rebuilt in the next few years and if they restart the gas extraction, this may be a lot more.

Just to give some idea of what is considered making a building "earthquake proof".
It means that you have 10 - 20 minutes time to get out of your house when the "big one" may hit. (4 on the Richter scale)
On the Richter scale, this may not seem much, but consider the source of these quakes to be right under the surface (3 km depth) instead of tens of km depth, then you may need to add roughly 2 "Richter points" to compare the quakes in Groningen with quakes elsewhere.
Also the "individual personal risk" may not exceed 10^-5, meaning no more than 1:100'000 people may die due to an event per year.
For example, if a dyke breaks due to a storm that may only happen once in 100 years, then it is considered acceptable if 1:1000 people in that area pass away because of this event.
Since way more than half of the Dutch population lives under sea level, we're kinda used to those statistics.
But still seeing the animations of what may happen to your own house during a quake just feels "different"

I knew about the risks of my house before my daughter was born. That's how long we've been fighting to get the house safe again.
My daughter just turned 8 last January.
But the Dutch government is extremely well equipped when it comes to delaying, denying and debating about issues like these.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#10 Post by ThomasB » 20 Mar 2022, 23:59

I hope your new replacement house is a fair exchange for all the trouble you've been through.

It's interesting to hear that other western countries are making the same mistakes that are being made in the USA. Americans are demanding cheaper fuel and those is drought areas also demand more water. Industry leaders, businesses and politicians make promises that we can safely do that. And some of the public trusts them.

And so we frack natural gas and pump ground water until the earth fights back. Like your community, there are areas here that have sunk several inches. The damage is probably irreversible and no one accepts blame for it.

And they want to do more of it. In the end, we get what we asked for, but not what we wanted.

Enough of the soap box commentary. Instead, I'll return my conversation back to home automation.

And one last thing. Congrats on the new home. Hopefully you will be fully moved in soon.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#11 Post by TD-er » 21 Mar 2022, 21:46

Yep, we have to make sure the people get educated, learn to question anything and not be depending on just a few suppliers.
So that's my bridge to get back to HomeAutomation and ESPEasy :)
All of these apply to the choice for a home automation device/environment and are in the DNA of ESPEasy.

Yep, it was a tough period, but one that made me realize that one should not just accept whatever is being told without questioning.
Just know how things work, so you know when someone is telling things that make sense. (which often is not, very well correlated to the level of income of the one telling the crap)
Also don't put yourself in some kind of lock-in.
Automation is meant to make life easier, not more difficult.
I've always been rather allergic to "that can't be done" and "you should not do that as that's not how it was designed to work".
Sentences like those always cause some itch or red dots on my skin... or both.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#12 Post by ThomasB » 21 Mar 2022, 22:06

I've always been rather allergic to "that can't be done" and "you should not do that as that's not how it was designed to work".
Sentences like those always cause some itch or red dots on my skin... or both.
My mantra too. When I was a young Mfg Engr I received many bonuses and awards because I executed what others said couldn't be done. "Impossible" things tend to become a personal challenge.

Regarding my Home Automation in the new house, I'm torn between using what I know will work for me now versus what might work for me later. Mainly because I rely on the automation and waiting for all the new tech's promises too happen soon is a bit risky. But I'll postpone my decisions until the very last minute, just in case the home automation Holy Grail lands at my feet.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#13 Post by TD-er » 21 Mar 2022, 23:18

Now that we finally moved back to the new house, I should be able to leave this project behind me and thus have lots and lots of extra time to work on this holy grail. :)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#14 Post by ThomasB » 19 Apr 2022, 00:48

Just a short update to this discussion. As mentioned, I've been using Insteon. Great WAF and very reliable control. But last Friday (Apr-15-2022) they closed for good. No announcements, just turned off the lights and disappeared. Company executives have even scrubbed their Insteon work history from Linkedin.

So Insteon is out of the running. I've been reviewing the Z-Wave and Zigbee stuff. The available hardware seems primitive compared to Insteon. And brand compatibility is uncertain, which makes me nervous.

Does anyone have any suggestions for good-looking Z-Wave compatible Scene Switch Controls and combination Fan/Light dimmer modules?

For example, like these:
https://www.insteon.com/wall-keypads
https://www.insteon.com/ceiling-fan-controller

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#15 Post by TD-er » 19 Apr 2022, 08:42

You could have a look at those Z-wave dongles and then combine those with your domotica system of choice, like Home Assistant/OpenHAB etc.
One of the bigger brands that also use Z-wave is Fibaro, but I'm not sure if those will communicate with your setup.

Also I don't know if you should look at vendor lock-in platforms.
Too bad you now are forced to switch instead of having some time to look around.
Does your current system still work, but for example cannot change settings or add new stuff?

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#16 Post by Ath » 19 Apr 2022, 09:23

Back in 2018, I selected Z-Wave, despite the relatively high prices, over Zigbee, as then Zigbee was mostly Hue equipment to control lighting and not much else. And still the main focus seems to be on lighting, and much less other sensors or controllers.
Both of these technologies integrate nicely into commercially available Home-automation controllers, so that should not be an issue, and most major manufacturers have expressed their future support for Matter, so there seems to be a good path into the future.

As TD-er mentioned, Fibaro has a good line-up of all types of Z-Wave equipment, and there are several other competitors in that area, like Qubino, Aeotec and Neo, and the same goes for Zigbee, Philips/Hue is a big promoter of this technology, but because the licenses for implementing are cheaper than Z-Wave, other manufacturers have jumped on this wagon, including f.e. Ikea, INNR and Xiaomi.
/Ton (PayPal.me)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#17 Post by ThomasB » 19 Apr 2022, 19:33

Does your current system still work, but for example cannot change settings or add new stuff?
Most of my Insteon devices are controlled by OpenHab and those are still working. I had one cloud controlled switch that ignored me on Friday, which was my first clue that trouble was brewing at Insteon. Let's just say it was the canary in the coal mine.

But my Openhab system is an older version (OH2) that is on it's last legs. Some features no longer work. Several months ago I purchased all new hardware (RPI) so I could start fresh with the latest version. I've put that project on hold until I resolve where I'm heading in this home automation journey.
Fibaro has a good line-up of all types of Z-Wave equipment, and there are several other competitors in that area, like Qubino, Aeotec and Neo, and the same goes for Zigbee
Thanks for the heads up on brands to check out. I've looked at most of them and just can't find direct replacements for the hardware that Insteon provided. So it appears that I will need to re-adjust my expectations.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#18 Post by TD-er » 19 Apr 2022, 21:37

You have bought your Raspberry Pi unit(s) several months ago...
Well so did I, around Christmas, but until now not yet delivered.
So keep an eye on those units as those are now made from parts containing the ultra rare chemical element "Unobtainium".

There are even tracker sites on ze webz showing which shops may report Raspberry Pi units in stock. (rarely more than 1 or 2 sites of the hundreds tracked)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#19 Post by ThomasB » 19 Apr 2022, 23:00

I bought everything from Adafruit last November. At that time global shortages were beginning to appear, so I feel fortunate to have won the RPi lottery.

Given the rising prices of Unobtainium, maybe my new RPi parts will become a ticket to financial independence. But first Elon needs to know what I have and he's too busy trolling twitter to respond to my calls.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#20 Post by ThomasB » 21 Apr 2022, 21:44

The scene controllers from Zooz look like adequate replacements for the Insteons switches I've been using.
https://www.getzooz.com/scene-controllers-and-remotes/

They have a combo fan/light controller too.
https://www.getzooz.com/zooz-zen30-double-switch/

So it looks like I'll be converting to Z-wave. But I have plans to use Ikea motorized blinds, so Zigbee will be needed as well. And I'm considering a move from OpenHab to Hubitat. The goal is to have a "generic" home control system that can be managed by someone else (when wife becomes a widow after my lifetime warranty expires).

Still have several months to make a final decision on the automation choices. My new home is still just a bare dirt lot; the foundation will be poured in May.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#21 Post by TD-er » 21 Apr 2022, 23:31

To give you some perspective on the build speed...
This was end 2020, for my home: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5PiJLmE2uc8&t=178s
A 30m long drill on a 60 tons drill setup, pouring in concrete while extracting the drill.
This concrete is where the foundation was built on.

And we just moved in last March.

N.B. the other videos are also giving a nice view on the demolition of the old houses, building the new ones on base isolation (earthquake proof) etc.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#22 Post by ThomasB » 22 Apr 2022, 00:56

Amazing amount of work has gone into rebuilding the homes in your neighborhood. And so many more to do. Not the ideal way to get a brand new house, but great to know you're finally moved in.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#23 Post by TD-er » 22 Apr 2022, 08:25

Yep, it is quite unique to have a home built on base isolation.

Here you can see the 'gap' between the fundation on which the house is built and the surrounding box in the ground: https://photos.app.goo.gl/ZHbuouu2HMUEbsaLA
And an older foto: https://photos.app.goo.gl/VGZoqjgEoFFdZfiB7

Here you can see the first beams of the fundation of the houses placed on the sliders: https://photos.app.goo.gl/XXChwPUbLbz1dfXU7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/yzikEi6339Fv9aVh8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/fH18iLRsE3ggTT4i8
https://photos.app.goo.gl/J4gTm1CcPBKuyGSm7
https://photos.app.goo.gl/RuRr7mNU8scuQ3RX7

Drone footage: https://photos.app.goo.gl/WmbGzxCK6GbYZeVL9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/Wk7FMSk6opqLxEZf8

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#24 Post by ThomasB » 22 Apr 2022, 18:11

Wow. I suspect that building your isolated foundation in my area (West Coast USA) would probably increase a house's construction costs by about two million $USD.

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#25 Post by TD-er » 22 Apr 2022, 18:14

It isn't that much more expensive.
They estimated that this kind of isolation would make the house roughly 20k euro more expense, as the rest of the house would then be less expensive to construct to withstand the quakes.
Also my house is nowhere near 2M worth.
More like 1/7th of it.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#26 Post by ThomasB » 22 Apr 2022, 18:46

They estimated that this kind of isolation would make the house roughly 20k euro more expense
I'm skeptical they think it only adds 20K Euro. For reference, I'm being charged an extra 16.7K EUR ($18K USD) to install a sliding glass patio door on the new house. Plus we added some other rather mundane options (extra AC outlets / ceiling lights, larger kitchen cabinets, laundry sink, some CAT6 drops, and a few other basic things) and it increased the cost over $100K USD total.

Were in different countries of course. But what they are saying about the cost of your foundation does not sound right to me. If it is true then those construction guys must be paid slave wages.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#27 Post by TD-er » 22 Apr 2022, 20:46

Nope, it isn't 20k more compared to a regular house.
It is 20k more expensive compared to how much extra strong the building had to be without the friction pendulums.

I think it will be roughly 70 - 100k more expensive to build a house to withstand earthquakes with the calculated maximum pga we can expect to have here (peak ground acceleration)
The pga is what damages your house, not the magnitude on the Richter scale.
Here the magnitude on the Richter scale isn't that impressive, because the source of the quakes is right under the surface.
Rough estimate is that the max. pga they used for the building regulations is comparable with what may happen during a quake of between 6 - 7 on the Richter scale somewhere else in the world.
But on the other hand, one of the strongest quakes ever recorded in the world, at a 9 on the Richter scale, had an pga which was less than what our house is designed for to withstand.
So it is really hard to compare as the quakes here are very a-typical compared to quakes elsewhere, mainly because normally quakes occur at 10s of km below the surface and we have quakes more like the surface ripples you see when you throw a pebble into water.
If we would have quakes where the ground would shake for as long as quakes elsewhere, then the house would be destroyed too.

Oh and about the things you mentioned as extras...
I installed (and paid for myself) :
Airco: 5600 euro
CAT-6a network outlet to every room: 135 euro per outlet.
Extra AC wall sockets: 85 euro per tube put into the concrete walls + 50 euro to add wiring + wall sockets
Cable to the garden shed was extremely expensive in my opinion: 600 euro for 3-phase 4mm^2 outdoor cable of 20m
Complete kitchen including montage: 20k (luxurious kitchen)
Water to washing room (and to the sewer): 2k
Toilet + bathroom: 22k
water tap outside: 700 euro
CO2 controlled ventilation: 200 euro extra on top of basic switch per room.

All-in-all nowhere near 100k

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#28 Post by ThomasB » 22 Apr 2022, 23:28

I didn't intend to make this into a home construction cost dance-off. But I'm envious of your lower add-on prices. For example, for CAT6 I paid $280 USD each drop. Some wiring for my 5.1 home theater was $540. And so on.

In the past I would have added all these things on my own (like I did in my existing house). But this go-around I've decided (which means my wife has told me) to avoid spending all my free time fishing wires into the walls.

Your Toilet + Bathroom $22K seems similar to my area's prices. I'm changing an existing small room into a bedroom. That meant the builder needed to add a 3 meter long interior wall, a closet, and a door. They charged $7K USD to do that.

I asked for an additional outdoor water tap spigot on an outside wall. The standard build includes two of them and they refused to do add another. Your $700 water tap cost sounds high, but at least they are cooperating.

I'm grateful the builder will incorporate most of what I want during construction. But the cost really hurts the wallet.

The good news is that these unexpected expenses have made me numb to the costs of redoing my home automation. In the past I would have penny-pinched by making my own devices. Now I don't mind spending $50 on each ready-made switch control. :)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#29 Post by TD-er » 23 Apr 2022, 01:03

I know what you mean about the relativity of costs.

In the last month, I spent over 1000 euro on Philips Hue lamps, switches, etc. (probably a lot more, but I stopped counting at 1000).

A year ago, I would not have imagined to pay like 20 euro on a light bulb and I'm still convinced that one can build anything yourself.
But on the other hand, you have to be realistic that there is only 24h in a day.
The last few months, since we got the keys of our house, I have been spending way more time than I would have wanted to make sure contractors, sub contractors and sub-sub... wel you get the idea, actually do what they're paid to do.
But the really sad truth is that they don't.
Only the ones we picked ourselves and 1 (!!!) of the contractors that was allowed to do things before the keys were handed over to the owners, is doing what he's supposed to do.

It took over a month to get in touch with the contractor for the sanitair (toilet + bathroom) to actually note down what wasn't working and what was not according to what is in the contract. Just today (over 2 months after getting the keys) they got back to me about their plan to finally replace the toilet.
This toilet is a perfect science experiment, showing you very well what is happening in a Dyson vaccuum cleaner or in a tornado. The vortex created by the water is pushing up everything you want to flush so the water can go past it and then leave a pile of stuff you wanted to flush in the toilet for the next person to deal with it. You can flush it as often as you like, but it will not go away.

Similar things for the kitchen, where the company who sold (and installed) the kitchen now has a perfect streak of 9 times in a row for appointments where they really have no clue what has to be done.
So today (after I wrote an extremely to the point email, with some people at the right places in the cc) they finally called me and I got the impression the people on the phone really were extremely keen on writing down everything I said.
As you may know, Dutch people can be very direct and to the point. Well this email was even for Dutch people very confronting and to the point, that just summarizing what had gone wrong was probably enough to get some people to finally move away from their desk and finally start calling people.

And then the garden + driveway. That should have been done before we got the keys, but let's say that just yesterday they finally finished the fence, still have to do half the pavements and no plants/grass yet.
Oh and they need to take down the fence again and redo it (again) as the first time they just ruined the planks by using nailguns that just destroyed the wood and those spots that were relatively unharmed, they painted over the nails with some completely different color shiny black paint. (the fence wood is matte antracite black)

And that's just a very small summary of what's been keeping me busy the past 2 months.

So I totally get it that you just pay a bit more to get things done right so you have some time left to do the things you like to do.
As we say: I'm not rich enough to buy cheap stuff :)

And since I put a lot of my money on Philips Hue stuff, you can imagine there is some real incentive for me to make sure ESPEasy will finally support those too. :)
I did start working on ESPEasy (in 2017) when I knew the house was about to be rebuilt, so I had to make the best home automation system I could think of for the new house... and I will ;)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#30 Post by ThomasB » 23 Apr 2022, 02:01

Long ago, when we moved into our current house, I learned the hard way that it is better to fix a contractor's mistake myself than to ask them to come back and do it. Because they will find a way to make it worse.

I haven't any plans to use Philips Hue lights, at least not yet. However, all my existing ESPEasy devices are setup with OpenHab's Hue Emulation, so in a round about way I have been a Hue user.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#31 Post by TD-er » 23 Apr 2022, 09:56

I really expect the Matter & Threads to become a major player in IoT stuff. Simply because just about any big player in the market is working on it.
So in the end it should not really matter (pun intended) which brand you will take as they are supposed to work together.
But time will tell.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#32 Post by ThomasB » 25 Apr 2022, 21:28

For those that were Insteon cloud users, hackaday published a useful summary of the sudden company shutdown.
https://hackaday.com/2022/04/25/insteon ... home-less/
This situation is another example of why cloud-mania is eventually going to be painful to many home automation users.

They mentioned an important tip. Do NOT reset your Insteon controller hub. No cloud = no way to re-provision it.

TLDR; Don't install anything that isn't based on local hub control. There's several popular choices to do this, such as home assistant, openhab, or hubitat. Learning curve is much higher, but if you take the time to learn and do it then you'll avoid being stuck in the dark.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#33 Post by TD-er » 25 Apr 2022, 21:50

Just to stress the importance of being cloud-independent, another news-article of today (in Dutch, but Google translate can help here) https://tweakers.net/nieuws/196022/ubis ... fline.html

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#34 Post by ThomasB » 21 Oct 2022, 18:59

I really expect the Matter & Threads to become a major player in IoT stuff. Simply because just about any big player in the market is working on it.
I was hoping to see some affordable devices come out by now. But I learned that the Matter standards weren't approved until two weeks ago. So more waiting.

There's a small number of existing products that have promised to add Matter to their firmware. Most notably Hue lights, which I don't use. I want scene controllers, light dimmers, fan controllers, I/O modules, and relay modules. They must be affordable too.

I have more time to decide what to buy. At this point Zigbee is still high on the list. But in 3-4 months I will have to choose, so Matter better get on the ball fast.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#35 Post by TD-er » 21 Oct 2022, 20:10

Just FYI... Matter is just a protocol description requiring IPv6. So it is just an IP protocol.

Threads is probably named by someone with some nice sense of humor as it is describing how to communicate wireless. Just to generalize the mess caused by Zigbee/Zwave/Bluetooth/etc.
It even defines what energy should be available to send out specific packets and thus it is part of their announcement packets to join some kind of mesh.

For those companies that now have incompatible wireless standards, they have promised their bridges will be adapted to also support Matter. Either by making a firmware upgrade (e.g. Hue and Ikea seem to be doing this) or by introducing new bridges which support both Threads & Matter and their own older standards.

The ESP32-H2 has been used during development and implementation/validation of the Threads standard.
I've never been able to buy one of those myself.

I know HomeAssistant is actively working with the team developing Matter and I've seen a unit running a (not yet publicly available) version of ESPhome on some M5stack unit (or look alike?). Not sure if that one also had hardware to be used with Threads.

TL;DR
Matter is an IP-based protocol
Threads is somewhat of a generalization of all wireless options.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#36 Post by ThomasB » 21 Oct 2022, 20:39

Matter is an IP-based protocol
But that protocol has to be shoehorned into existing products or new products need to be developed. That's what's holding up my home automation decisions.

BTW, I've removed all the Insteon devices from my house and returned everything to old-school manual control. Flipping light switches is something I've avoided for a couple decades. Even my wife finds it strange that Alexa ignores her and our house is dark when the sun goes down. Home automation at the new place is definitely high on the honey-do list.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#37 Post by TD-er » 21 Oct 2022, 20:48

Most companies which have legacy devices out in the field, will very likely update their bridges to support Matter.
But I'm fully aware the "very likely" is the really important phrase here.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#38 Post by ThomasB » 21 Oct 2022, 21:53

Understood. However, I want deploy devices that natively "speak" Matter rather than rely on a hub/bridge to perform protocol translation.

The goal is to get away from a proprietary hardware dependent installation. Matter is suppose to solve that since they claim all official devices will be able to directly talk to each other.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#39 Post by TD-er » 21 Oct 2022, 22:13

Sure, but because of those chickens and eggs that always seem to be messing around with modern standards, you also need those bridges to allow for a quick adoption of the standard.
I totally understand you don't want to buy those kludges yourself when starting fresh, but you do need them so others will buy those and help this standard to get adopted as quickly as possible.
So you have to decide for yourself whether you will buy the chicken, or the eggs. At least you need to convince everyone else to buy those chickens so there will be more eggs for you to buy.

Upto now, all domotica related stuff you could buy was more like a prehistoric soup made from left-over chickens and eggs. The fumes of all these different kinds of soup formed into some kind of highly reactive nebula which was pulled together by some unknown force called colaboration.
About 2 weeks ago we had this big bang and we're still waiting for the dust to settle so we can see what this new egg/chicken thing will look like.
Let's hope we won't have to wait about 14 billion years to finally understand what just happened :)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#40 Post by Ath » 21 Oct 2022, 22:36

I hope it's not this: https://xkcd.com/927/ :lol:
/Ton (PayPal.me)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#41 Post by ThomasB » 21 Oct 2022, 22:55

So you have to decide for yourself whether you will buy the chicken, or the eggs. At least you need to convince everyone else to buy those chickens so there will be more eggs for you to buy.
Good point. And I must agree, but am not thrilled to be an early adopter, again.

This wouldn't be my first chicken and egg dance. I was an early adopter for X10, starting in the late 1970's when it was sold under the BSR label. And after heavily investing in X10 I switched to Insteon when it was released in the mid-2000's. Eventually added OpenHab to it. Along with some ESPEasy devices for those unusual use-cases.

BTW, my first real home control installation was a DiY setup that I built in 1975. The local electronic surplus store had brand new TV remotes and matching 4-CH receiver modules. Some TTL chips and Triacs were added and the result was a lighting control system for my studio apartment. Not at all automated since it needed a finger to press the buttons on the handheld remote. But still cool since I could control all the lights and turn on my sweet stereo system from anywhere in the tiny apartment, something not usually seen back then.

I guess what I'm trying to say is that I've been at the forefront of home control for awhile. Now that I'm officially an old dude, I was hoping to relax a bit and just enjoy something that has all the bugs worked out. But I'll get back on the chicken train and see if I can help push Matter into the mainstream.
I hope it's not this: https://xkcd.com/927/
You already know the answer to that. :)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#42 Post by TD-er » 21 Oct 2022, 23:09

BTW, my first real home control installation was a DiY setup that I built in 1975.
That was like 8 or 9 years before I did my first soldering (and also a year before I was born), let alone automating things using electronics.
Now that I'm officially an old dude
More like "decades of experience" :)


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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#44 Post by ThomasB » 24 Oct 2022, 17:40

That is good news.

I found another announcement about it that was released today. It says that Matter support is missing and will come later. But no date was mentioned.
https://www.theverge.com/23420136/ikeas ... rice-specs

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#45 Post by seersucker » 13 Nov 2022, 16:09

fwiw here's my experience. I decided on ZWave around 5 years ago to mostly control exterior lighting circuits in an extended property, and have around 25 single and dual relays controlling around 90 individual lights. In a country (Chile) with even more seismic problems than most I didn't even consider a Cloud-based system, and went for Domoticz on a Pi to control it all, chosen for its simplicity and flexibility. I used relay modules in conjunction with the existing lighting switches so that lighting is still available in the event of a controller failure.

Overall, its all worked reasonably well, but the cost of ZWave modules remains high. Many of the devices I installed are now obsolete, even Domoticz has dropped OpenZwave, a community effort which was never really responsive enough to compatibility problems. I have stopped upgrading this system as the prospect of re-pairing all these devices, some inside wallboxes with difficult access, does not exactly appeal.

My longterm plan is to gradually start replacing costly ZWave devices with Zigbee when I run out of spares, although the potential comms problems associated with using 2.4 GHz over an extended area could be an issue. Or given this endless technological faffing, maybe I will just go back to old-fashioned light switches!

Despite my wifi reservations, I do have some Sonoff devices flashed with esp-easy connected to Domoticz and they work perfectly.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#46 Post by ThomasB » 28 Nov 2022, 23:56

Or given this endless technological faffing, maybe I will just go back to old-fashioned light switches!
I've reverted back to using old-fashion switches and have manually turned on lights / appliances for a couple months. My wife misses the automation, so that means I have her permission to return to the endless technological faffing. :)

New News: It's official, I've started my journey to use Matter/Thread.

Not moved in yet, but the new home will need window coverings. I found that Smartwings had an indieogogo campaign for their new Thread enabled smart shades. Projected to be available in Jan 2023, but I understand delays are possible.
https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/smar ... rt-blinds/

I committed (pre-paid) to a 9-shade perk, plus added a couple solar panels and their smart hub. Crazy thing to do given the high cost and it being a crowd-funded "imaginary" product. But my decision to go with Thread, before any proof it will pan out in the long term, is madness on its own. So joining a crowd funded product to get it is just more crazy on top.

These nine shades will handle the big glass slider doors in main living area and patio entry, plus the windows in the dining room. Most of the shades will be mains powered (with battery backup), but two will get solar instead (no mains nearby).

For example, here's where three of the blinds will go:

Triple Sliding Door
Triple Sliding Door
SliderBlindsGreatRm1_1000.jpg (83.46 KiB) Viewed 23667 times

To save costs I will use Ikea's Zigbee smart shades on the bedroom windows since their available sizes will fit. However, their Matter bridge is still in development. FWIW, I'll power these blinds by their internal battery supply rather than mains AC.

TL;DR: All my money's on the egg.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#47 Post by TD-er » 29 Nov 2022, 01:02

FYI.... I just got IPv6 working on ESP32 :)
Or at least I got DHCPv6 working. Not only does it receive a link-local IPv6 address, but also a global IPv6.
Am also looking into what's needed to support Matter.
It seems I don't need to register a Vendor ID/Product ID, which saves a lot of money :)
https://developers.home.google.com/matt ... -discovery

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#48 Post by ThomasB » 29 Nov 2022, 01:06

@TD-er: That's fantastic news. Given the slow rollout in the market, maybe ESPEasy will be the first Thread capable device, or at least one of the first.

I'm curious, does a Thread/Matter device reply with info (i.e., JSON doc) that fully describes the device? That is, sufficient info to the calling client so it can create a control menu on-the-fly?

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#49 Post by TD-er » 29 Nov 2022, 08:19

Nope, I know ESPhome was there first as they even supplied test builds used in the final stages of the specification validation. (one which I officially never have seen of course)
Paulus with his HomeAssistant is -as far as I know- a member of the Matter implementation group.

Given how many people are developing and working on the Matter implementation on Tasmota, I think they will beat me to it too.

But probably before Ikea finalized Matter support, we can answer positively to the question: "Does ESPEasy Matter?"
I'm curious, does a Thread/Matter device reply with info (i.e., JSON doc) that fully describes the device? That is, sufficient info to the calling client so it can create a control menu on-the-fly?
Yep, that's how I also understand it.
Matter just describes the format of how data is presented, how devices announce themselves and even how OTA update procedures should be done. (or at least some recommendation)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#50 Post by jimmys01 » 29 Nov 2022, 15:04

I had similar questions as you have now.
I feel like I can write pages upon pages for this topic.
I have a fully automated / smart home and I support an establishment with 200+ smart nodes in a hotel.

Please also consider the following when making your decision
-Who will fix it if when it WILL break? If you are away? If you are gone for good!?
-Is it reversable to a standard "dump" wiring when or if you sell the house?

For that reasons I opted for sonnof T3 for almost everything in the walls and custom wemos d1 minis for my varius sensors, IR stuff and weird contraptions.

The wiring in the walls is 100% as an everyday electrician would do it exept I have neutral wires going to the light switch box.

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