Seeking Home Automation Advice

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ThomasB
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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#51 Post by ThomasB » 29 Nov 2022, 16:36

Please also consider the following when making your decision
-Who will fix it if when it WILL break? If you are away? If you are gone for good!?
-Is it reversable to a standard "dump" wiring when or if you sell the house?
Yes, those are important issues I am trying to mitigate in the new Home Automation system. Especially after I am gone, as mentioned in the first post.

The main goal of this topic was to gather info that helps me make good choices on the technology I deploy. The marketing hype has many (including me) thinking the holy grail is Matter/Thread. At this point it's all promises, magic, and pixie dust.

And be forewarned, I'm horrible at choosing a winner given my long history of buying high and selling low. So I may have doomed Matter/Thread by buying into it.

The safest choice would be to ignore home automation and live a simple Luddite lifestyle. But I am drawn to blinking lights and clicking relays.
The wiring in the walls is 100% as an everyday electrician would do it exept I have neutral wires going to the light switch box.
Fortunately for me, the USA National Electrical Code (NEC) now requires a neutral in all switch boxes. So my new home will be compatible with smart switches.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#52 Post by ThomasB » 01 Dec 2022, 19:47

Given how many people are developing and working on the Matter implementation on Tasmota, I think they will beat me to it too.
But probably before Ikea finalized Matter support, we can answer positively to the question: "Does ESPEasy Matter?"
@TD-er, From what I found it appears that Tasmota is not releasing a Thread version any time soon. So you are still in the race. :)

I'm currently looking for scene control switches for my Thread compatible window blinds. The only Thread capable version at the moment is the Wemo Stage scene switch, but that device needs Homekit. My goal is to avoid a cloud based controller (and I'm not an Apple fanboy), so Homekit is not the automation droid I am looking for.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#53 Post by TD-er » 01 Dec 2022, 19:53

Threads is for sure still a problem on ESP hardware as there simply isn't any ESP32-H2 silicon available for us mere mortals.

As a matter of fact, Matter is being worked on by the Tasmota team as we speak. (they invited me about a week ago in the Tasmota staff Discord channel)
So we're together discussing issues regarding IPv6 on ESPs.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#54 Post by ThomasB » 01 Dec 2022, 20:51

As a matter of fact, Matter is being worked on by the Tasmota team as we speak. (they invited me about a week ago in the Tasmota staff Discord channel)
Please keep us posted on your progress. BTW, I'd be interested in a Thread bridge that could be used with ESPEasy's P2P.

I've been contemplating on how to proceed with my new automation system. I want it fully operational no later than the end of 2023. Thread devices are too far away for me to plan a system around them.

Despite my investment in the Thread compatible window blinds, I'm reverting back to deploying Zigbee devices on everything else. The controller will probably be Hubitat.

This revised plan is more tailored to my timeline. Low risk too. Not giving up on Thread, but for now I'll watch some eggs hatch and become mature chickens.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#55 Post by TD-er » 01 Dec 2022, 21:56

ThomasB wrote: 01 Dec 2022, 20:51 [...] I want it fully operational no later than the end of 2023. Thread devices are too far away for me to plan a system around them.
[...]
Ooooh a new deadline :)
I always like the 'wooshing' sound they make when they pass.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#56 Post by ThomasB » 02 Dec 2022, 19:00

Funny you should mention a 'wooshing' sound. I've been hearing it a lot lately. Started the day I signed the new house contract. But in my case it seems to follow my declining bank account balance.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#57 Post by TD-er » 02 Dec 2022, 20:29

Maybe if you measure the frequency sweep of the wooshing sound, you can compute the speed of both.
Make sure to avoid the reverb sound of the bank account, as it may be an indication of nearing the bottom.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#58 Post by ThomasB » 12 Jan 2023, 22:27

Maybe if you measure the frequency sweep of the wooshing sound, you can compute the speed of both.
Hmm, good idea. We'll need a Doppler plugin for ESPEasy. I will put in a request for that.

A week ago I received a message from SmartWings regarding the Thread enabled smart roller blinds I ordered. They said their design passed Apple certification but Apple will not issue approval at this time. Other thread products are affected too, according to the email. I have no idea what is really going on and I can't find any info about Apple delaying product certifications.

If this delay goes on for too long I'll see if I cancel the order and use Zigbee roller shades instead. I'm only thinking of the safety of others -- No one needs to see me walking naked around my house.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#59 Post by TD-er » 12 Jan 2023, 22:42

ThomasB wrote: 12 Jan 2023, 22:27 [...]
No one needs to see me walking naked around my house.
So you should ask yourself: "Does it matter?" ;)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#60 Post by ThomasB » 12 Jan 2023, 22:59

So you should ask yourself: "Does it matter?" ;)
Once seen, you can't unsee it. Covering my windows is my gift to humanity.

BTW, now two weeks away from moving into the new house. It's been a frustrating journey. I recognize my experience was not as bad as your seismic replacement home build, but still a hair-pulling and bank account draining experience.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#61 Post by TD-er » 12 Jan 2023, 23:08

Yep, know the feeling.
We're still fighting with the sub(sub)contractors to finish stuff.
If the kitchen people can't manage to get the filters done in the suction unit above our cooking next week, they will officially be 1 year past the delivery date of the kitchen.
If it wasn't so terribly sad, it would have been funny.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#62 Post by TD-er » 19 Jan 2023, 00:01

OK, here a (not so) very promising video on the current state of matter....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VZluNg1hSg

It looks like the state of matter is in some gas form right now.
As we would call it in Dutch "gebakken lucht".

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#63 Post by ThomasB » 19 Jan 2023, 02:42

OK, here a (not so) very promising video on the current state of matter....
Hmm, was hoping for better news. But not surprised that the current state of Matter is gebakken lucht.

The builder gave my wife and me a walking tour of our new house today. Looks nice with only minor things to finish. Next week I have a final walk tour, sign papers, and start moving in. That's when the availability of *reliable* Matter based home automation will start to matter to me.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#64 Post by TD-er » 19 Jan 2023, 09:04

About a week ago, I spoke to someone who's working on the Matter standard.
He told me that 1 day before the CES someone claimed to have found "serious issues" resulting in a lot of engineers performing updates on devices the night before the CES... which didn't make things appear better working on the CES.

Sometimes I get the impression hobbyists may make more rational decisions on when to update what compared to managers on dev teams of billion dollar companies.
Maybe having your wife frowning upon not working devices you made/installed will lead to making better decisions compared to causing issues in millions of homes due to your decisions.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#65 Post by ThomasB » 19 Jan 2023, 19:26

So far Matter is not even close to the promises that have been made. Certification delays, implementation issues, empty marketplace. I have a nagging feeling that the cartoon posted by @ATH many months ago has foreshadowed the destiny to the Matter standards.
https://xkcd.com/927/

One thing is for certain, the moment I decide to switch to ZigBee the Matter issues will be quickly resolved. As mentioned before, I'm the star of a Truman Show spinoff, where the plot is to torture a regular guy for the audience's amusement.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#66 Post by TD-er » 19 Jan 2023, 20:04

I know the people from HomeAssistant are working very hard on a Matter implementation.
One person from the Tasmota team is +/- halfway implementing the various steps of the standard (no idea how far he is in "time spent")

As far as I see, there are a few steps in the provisioning of matter devices which may never be solved in OpenSource.
At least basing on the current requirements in the standard.

In principle, when you provision a Matter device using a controller of 'brand A', it should also be available from controllers made by 'brand B'.
But this provisioning is done via some key exchanges, signed using a certificate and then entered in a blockchain.

Only participants of the consortium developing Matter, have certificates which allow registering devices in this block chain.
As far as I now understand the standard, this is merely a key exchange which generates a new certificate which can be used for authenticating devices to a group. (or pool)
So there is no central registry of all Matter devices ever deployed.

Still, you need to certify your products to acquire a certificate which you can use to sign the controllers/bridges etc. you will sell.
There are 2 levels (at least) for participants.
- 20'000 per year as a member fee, includes free (or low priced) certification of products.
- 6000 (not sure, but I think it is per certification) granting you a certificate to allow provisioning of Matter devices.

Paulus (the man behind Home Assistant) is a full member, so I really hope there will be some implementation which allows self-built devices like ESPEasy/Tasmota/etc to be registered to a group so they can communicate with any other Matter device of that same group.

I know there is some debate about whether or not 'self signed' certificates should also be allowed, but I have no clue whether this will impose some limitations.
I think using self-signed certificates will make it slightly harder to let such devices join a group, but as soon as they are joined/provisioned, they should work just like any other Matter device.
But it will limit the nr of "controllers" which will accept such devices to join a group.
I have no idea if other devices/controllers can even see whether such devices originally started with self-signed certificates.
Maybe we'll end up with something like Let's Encrypt.

One of the reasons the Matter implementation seems to be 'flaky' at best is that the certification of Matter devices isn't yet automated. So some of the early devices actually do seem to be working as if they have temporary "self signed" certificates.

But this is all my own interpretation of "reading between the lines".

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#67 Post by ThomasB » 20 Jan 2023, 17:39

Thanks for the information. Matter membership is expensive, but as they say That's the cost of doing business.
Paulus (the man behind Home Assistant) is a full member, so I really hope there will be some implementation which allows self-built devices like ESPEasy/Tasmota/etc to be registered to a group so they can communicate with any other Matter device of that same group.
I would be surprised to find that we would would be allowed to build DiY Matter smart devices that were officially supported (certified). Mainly because it provides a loophole to all those Chinese smart device companies that would use this method to get around the steep membership fees. But I could see that there would be an allowance for non-certified devices that evoked a warning message (e.g. "Unapproved device! Use at your own risk.") during binding/installation to scare away the general public.

I was on AliExpress to today and found a Matter smart plug (pre-order). Not in production yet, but they will take your money.
https://www.aliexpress.us/item/3256804916024461.html
https://shop.meross.com/products/meross ... ini-mss115

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#68 Post by TD-er » 20 Jan 2023, 21:29

So it is like a crowdfunding product?

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#69 Post by ThomasB » 23 Jan 2023, 20:23

So it is like a crowdfunding product?
They call it a "pre-sale." Perhaps less risky than a typical crowdfunded product.

On the other hand, my SmartWings roller blinds were crowdfunded. Currently being produced for me and I should receive them soon. But they wont have Matter certification (been promised it will come later). Plus I get the old cassette mechanics based on their previous roller blind design because the shade sizes I needed were too large to fit on the new (crowdfunded) "nano" version. So in the end I paid too much for too little. Follows my usual "buy high, sell low" habits.

In three days I get keys to the new house. All the lights and AC outlets are begging for home automation. But I'll do my best to slow down to give Matter a chance to catch up with me.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#70 Post by TD-er » 23 Jan 2023, 21:45

Well, I also have some huge update regarding electrical home appliances....

We finally have a working air recirculation unit/extractor hood in the kitchen.
All within 1 year from when they officially "handed over" (not sure what the English term is for "oplevering") the kitchen.
Still 1 week left in this 1 year period... It is amazing!

One more item can be crossed off the list.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#71 Post by ThomasB » 23 Jan 2023, 22:48

We finally have a working air recirculation unit/extractor hood in the kitchen.
Well, that sucks. :)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#72 Post by TD-er » 23 Jan 2023, 22:51

Not only sucks, but also plasma's the smelly parts away.
There was even an official certificate included, guaranteeing there was real plasma used... or something like that ;)

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#73 Post by ThomasB » 23 Jan 2023, 23:35

Now I can honestly say the kitchen exhaust fan in my new home sucks. That's because it does not include a Doc Brown Plasma source like yours. Maybe in the future I'll get it.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#74 Post by TD-er » 24 Jan 2023, 08:53

Just be glad it doesn't have one of Doc's with the current energy prices you don't want to pull GigaWatts...

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#75 Post by ThomasB » 16 Feb 2023, 06:03

A couple days ago I received and installed the smart roller blinds. They are thread / matter compatible. Look nice, quiet operation, wife is happy.

The supplier advertises that the blinds will work with Homekit, Alexa, Google Assistant, and Smart Things. I prefer using Alexa but their Matter-over-Thread support has not been released. In the meantime I'm using a WiFi hub that I purchased with the blinds, which works with Alexa.

So my journey to begin using Matter / Thread is still just a dream. But the dream is getting closer. Will report back when my little army of Amazon Echos finally support thread.

BTW, I moved into the new home two weeks ago. Many things are still in boxes, the garage looks like a hoarder's lair, and the new office-lab is a mess. But so happy to finally be at the new place.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#76 Post by TD-er » 16 Feb 2023, 08:48

Maybe also nice to read this article on the Dutch tech website Tweakers.net: https://tweakers.net/reviews/10866/is-m ... daard.html
They also discuss the "Threads" part and that you may already have a Threads borderrouter in your house without knowing it :)

Still they are not yet overly enthusiastic, as the implementation is clearly not bugfree.

Anyway, congrats on the new house!

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#77 Post by bidrohini » 16 Feb 2023, 15:03

You can think about Samsung SmartThings. SmartThings is a popular home automation platform that supports a wide range of devices and is compatible with various protocols like Z-Wave, Zigbee, and Wi-Fi. It can be controlled via a mobile app or voice commands and does not require a cloud connection, although certain features may require an internet connection.

https://smarthomestarter.com/does-smart ... nthly-fee/

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#78 Post by ThomasB » 16 Feb 2023, 18:48

@All, Thanks for the links.

Amazon has not published a full list of their devices that can act as a border router. If I already have such an animal then the Alexa App does not report it.

I am considering SmartThings. But if Hubitat changes their mind and decides to update their hub hardware for Thread then I will probably select them instead.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#79 Post by ThomasB » 04 Apr 2023, 19:14

But if Hubitat changes their mind and decides to update their hub hardware for Thread then I will probably select them instead.
Update: Hubitat released a new controller called the Elevation C-8. The radio hardware was updated and is Thread capable; They claim that Matter will be added later this year. So this might be the home automation controller for me. Of course this new model is buggy with a lot of user complaints about stability. So I'll delay purchasing it until the firmware is improved.

BTW, I recently purchased several Ikea smart blinds. So now all the windows are automated. The Ikea blinds work fine, but they're not as nice as the SmartWings blinds I installed a couple months ago. However Ikea's price is 50% less and WAF issues are fully satisfied. So I call that success.

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Re: Seeking Home Automation Advice

#80 Post by TD-er » 04 Apr 2023, 21:06

Thus, for the WAF, it doesn't really Matter? :)

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